I disprove of the current action.

You guys did exactly what I warned you not to do.

I disprove greatly of the demotion of Matt, and Geo, and the recent promotions. It's absolutely against what we talked about, since all you guys are doing, is making a council of higher admins, effectively a military junta.

I'm near absolutely sure that the proposed democratic system would have worked MUCH better than radically slicing and dicing and putting new people in power.

Infact, I want to propose three things, and see people's opinions, just to see if I'm right or not.

1) Do you want a council, or prefer mass voting for decisions. In the case you prefer a council, do you, or do you not want to select the people you want for a council?

2) Do you agree or not on the impeachment of admins done by admins?

3) Do you think there should be a lead admin and admin position, or as I proposed, a single administrator rank, with no higher hirearchy?

Matt's removal was necessary, he was never around and refused to let us do anything without his approval, in regards to Geo, his bump is temporary to a more ''forum administrator'' thing, as he can't run his gmod anyways.

Simply put, a democracy and mass voting would never work. From what I've seen in the extensive past of this community, nothing but large amounts of bickering would happen, this way people are able to voice their opinions to the administrators, who act as a medium between the public, and the end result.

The promotions are also necessary, as we require a staffed administration team and simply don't have the people power for a full team, so this one, even if it's temporary, will suffice until we have larger numbers and can afford to expand the admin team to applications.

Finally, a single administrator position could never hope to work, it for one, would create massive delays in the making of decisions due to arguments between sides, plus you can not hope to maintain discipline when everyone is equal. Higher up supervisors are required to keep an eye on the behavior of the Basic Administrators and decide if they are fit to occupy their positions, which usually isn't brought up unless there are valid complaints from the public.

Ehm.......communism.....

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch - Ben Franklin.

Serious, stop this communism garbage, time and time again have shown us it doesn't work, and we're not switching to it in this community now or ever in the future.

Rutabega wrote:

Matt's removal was necessary, he was never around and refused to let us do anything without his approval, in regards to Geo, his bump is temporary to a more ''forum administrator'' thing, as he can't run his gmod anyways.

Simply put, a democracy and mass voting would never work. From what I've seen in the extensive past of this community, nothing but large amounts of bickering would happen, this way people are able to voice their opinions to the administrators, who act as a medium between the public, and the end result.

The promotions are also necessary, as we require a staffed administration team and simply don't have the people power for a full team, so this one, even if it's temporary, will suffice until we have larger numbers and can afford to expand the admin team to applications.

Finally, a single administrator position could never hope to work, it for one, would create massive delays in the making of decisions due to arguments between sides, plus you can not hope to maintain discipline when everyone is equal. Higher up supervisors are required to keep an eye on the behavior of the Basic Administrators and decide if they are fit to occupy their positions, which usually isn't brought up unless there are valid complaints from the public.

I find it utterly immature that you gave me poor rep for my post.

Let me put it bluntly. You of course wouldn't say anything good about the promotions, or a single rank, since you got promoted. You got benefited, and of course don't want it lost.

However, let it be said that nobody put you there. Nobody asked me if I wanted Pat, Trulyjust and you to be leaders. Personally, I don't even think we need a leader, when the so called "council" could perfectly be all the admins.

It's a small community, voting will work due to that. Let there be fighting, there doesn't have to be an equal opinion, but I want the same power as the other guy. For example, I want Agito to app for her/his character's powers, but Pat seemingly said no. I'm sure however, other people support me.

The admins-do-all system is what doesn't work at all. It's the source of favoritism, favoritism which causes problems with overpowered chars, for example. I can guarantee to you, if we did elections, most would go with my way. Because people don't like to be force fed something they don't necessarily approve off.

If you want to avoid frustration, problems, and power struggles, one of the best things to possibly do is remove admin ranks. Admins don't need to be supervised, the community can do that for you. Simply make an admin report section where people can file complaints about admins, and you'll have everything under control, since, who knows best? 8 people, or everyone in Olden?

The bad thing of democracy is that it does not ever give the expected results. It gives the fairest. I want it to be fair, not to be my way.

I have to agree with both of Ruta's points.

The first one (relative to the thread) is because in my personal opinion, that's how it should be. (if anyone
calls me an asskisser for this post I will murder you with poison cupcakes)

The second one cause just today I saw a bunch of Uberman's posts, and they all seemed... Well, like spam.

kamaitama wrote:

Rutabega wrote:

Matt's removal was necessary, he was never around and refused to let us do anything without his approval, in regards to Geo, his bump is temporary to a more ''forum administrator'' thing, as he can't run his gmod anyways.

Simply put, a democracy and mass voting would never work. From what I've seen in the extensive past of this community, nothing but large amounts of bickering would happen, this way people are able to voice their opinions to the administrators, who act as a medium between the public, and the end result.

The promotions are also necessary, as we require a staffed administration team and simply don't have the people power for a full team, so this one, even if it's temporary, will suffice until we have larger numbers and can afford to expand the admin team to applications.

Finally, a single administrator position could never hope to work, it for one, would create massive delays in the making of decisions due to arguments between sides, plus you can not hope to maintain discipline when everyone is equal. Higher up supervisors are required to keep an eye on the behavior of the Basic Administrators and decide if they are fit to occupy their positions, which usually isn't brought up unless there are valid complaints from the public.

I find it utterly immature that you gave me poor rep for my post.

Let me put it bluntly. You of course wouldn't say anything good about the promotions, or a single rank, since you got promoted. You got benefited, and of course don't want it lost.

However, let it be said that nobody put you there. Nobody asked me if I wanted Pat, Trulyjust and you to be leaders. Personally, I don't even think we need a leader, when the so called "council" could perfectly be all the admins.

It's a small community, voting will work due to that. Let there be fighting, there doesn't have to be an equal opinion, but I want the same power as the other guy. For example, I want Agito to app for her/his character's powers, but Pat seemingly said no. I'm sure however, other people support me.

The admins-do-all system is what doesn't work at all. It's the source of favoritism, favoritism which causes problems with overpowered chars, for example. I can guarantee to you, if we did elections, most would go with my way. Because people don't like to be force fed something they don't necessarily approve off.

If you want to avoid frustration, problems, and power struggles, one of the best things to possibly do is remove admin ranks. Admins don't need to be supervised, the community can do that for you. Simply make an admin report section where people can file complaints about admins, and you'll have everything under control, since, who knows best? 8 people, or everyone in Olden?

The bad thing of democracy is that it does not ever give the expected results. It gives the fairest. I want it to be fair, not to be my way.

And I find it not only immature, but HIGHLY insulting that you assume that was me.

For one, there is no leader, there is a council of both Head, and Basic admins that work togeather on the discussion of topics of importance, in other words, a republic. You need a certain amount of hirearchy to get things done in an effective way and the fact that I've been promoted is irrelivant, because I would of been promoted in due time anyways if Matt was kept as leader, would he of asked any of you if you all thought I should be promoted? Probably not.

I'd like to point out that for one, people as a large seemed fine with the idea of a counil of administrators in regards to Zaku's post. Another thing in regards to democracy, is just because it's the majority's decision which could be considered "fair" doesn't mean it's the best at all. The problem with allowing alot of arguments is you'll end up with massive amounts of petty squabling and a lot of wasted time and end up no closer to your goal with alot more people pissed off. What you suggest with giving everyone the same amount of power in regards to matters is more towards communism then democracy, and one way or annother, neither of those forms of government work and frankly, every form of government has it's flaws.

I tell you this right now, elections on a community such as this, where participation and work load are totally up to the people does not work. Simply put, you don't need the people that the majority want in charge of administrative affairs but you want people who in the past have shown they are both willing and capable of dealing with situations that require their attension. Another point is we did infact have moderator "Elections" before, and it was shown that the vast majority of voters treated like a popularity contest, much like a portion of the real world public treats elections. For example, how many votes did Obama get because he was black as opposed to how many he got because people thought he was the right man for the job?

What was done was the general cencus of the public as seen on their reactions to Zaku's post, as he was part of our discussion on how we all felt things should change. You were really the only person opposed to a council idea, though Crimzon was too, but his argument was on the basis that even in just a council there'd be far too much bickering, so what would that mean if you expanded the council to be the entire community? Many BAs don't even want the position of HA because generally HA entitles a much larger work load then BA, of which they want no part, so I totally disagree on your statement that two admin ranks creates a large power struggle and administrative conflict.

Democracy may be considered fair, but fair does not mean the best result. Not to mension that yes, in this case having this the ''fair'' way, as you put it, would also be your way.

Good day.

kamaitama wrote:

I disprove greatly of the demotion of Matt, and Geo, and the recent promotions. It's absolutely against what we talked about, since all you guys are doing, is making a council of higher admins, effectively a military junta.

I agree and approve of it. As of now I don't need the extra tasks with my gmod busted and unable to really help much.

kamaitama wrote:

I'm near absolutely sure that the proposed democratic system would have worked MUCH better than radically slicing and dicing and putting new people in power.

When you think of it this way, we don't need democracy. All the years I've known and EXPERIENCED democractic communities (believe me, Seen a lot...) it doesn't work with internet communities, it doesn't work in real life. Why? Because everyone's allowed to be biased.

kamaitama wrote:

1) Do you want a council, or prefer mass voting for decisions. In the case you prefer a council, do you, or do you not want to select the people you want for a council?

2) Do you agree or not on the impeachment of admins done by admins?

3) Do you think there should be a lead admin and admin position, or as I proposed, a single administrator rank, with no higher hirearchy?

1) Popularity issues. We've always had them. People were voted on before, infact, people who pretty much didn't do a damn thing to help. What's to say this won't stop?

2) The admins all dubbed it appropriate after many decisions. That's all that matters. Nobody who hasn't been seasoned should have the right to choose the unfit and the fit... for man reasons. one of them I already listed.

3) Lead admin; No. No thrones. None at all. No power over another with equality with others. One person doesn't have the ability to manage so much. This I've learned and know from experience because it's killed communities I've lead before. No single one person can handle such a thing. There's no checks and balances. No one person can be the support beam for an entire world. Or country. Or city. It works in physics too. You need more than one beam to hold up a house usually. You have four for the corners. Four walls. And then the possibility of a center beam for extra support. They all do their jobs, and the house stays standing. Break a wall down and the whole thing will collapse. If it's on one support beam only, beam collapses no matter what. Inevitable. So does the community. It happened with us, and you saw it.

kamaitama wrote:

I find it utterly immature that you gave me poor rep for my post.

Doesn't matter.

kamaitama wrote:

Let me put it bluntly. You of course wouldn't say anything good about the promotions, or a single rank, since you got promoted. You got benefited, and of course don't want it lost.

Also doesn't matter.

kamaitama wrote:

However, let it be said that nobody put you there. Nobody asked me if I wanted Pat, Trulyjust and you to be leaders. Personally, I don't even think we need a leader, when the so called "council" could perfectly be all the admins.

You're not the center. You don't decide for us. Yes, I did say us. This was a group decision not something where a god picks his demigods like in fairy tales.

kamaitama wrote:

It's a small community, voting will work due to that. Let there be fighting, there doesn't have to be an equal opinion, but I want the same power as the other guy. For example, I want Agito to app for her/his character's powers, but Pat seemingly said no. I'm sure however, other people support me.

A small community that could get bigger if done right. Fighting is not the way to go. There should be no dispute, no decision for the community. We'll do things, and then if they don't like it and have the balls and the right mindset to openly disagree with it they will. And if they can manage to convince us that there is a more efficient way, then we will change it. But until you state, and give proof, and have others who don't like it to step forward and TELL US, you will get no say in the matter. Remember if you want something you'll have to bring others who agree with you. You can't just say that you're sure there are other people. SHOW US. Don't SAY it. SHOW it, because until you do, we have the right to deny.

kamaitama wrote:

The admins-do-all system is what doesn't work at all. It's the source of favoritism, favoritism which causes problems with overpowered chars, for example. I can guarantee to you, if we did elections, most would go with my way. Because people don't like to be force fed something they don't necessarily approve off.

It's worked pretty damn well where I've been taking my break at.

We're just starting out with that. You should wait until it actually shows that it's not working before saying it doesn't. Early bird catches the worm but when there's no worm, bird goes hungry. Wait and see what happens before you think it's going to erupt into chaos and you somehow need to stop it. Leave it to us. If we feel uncomfortable with it we'll let everyone know and get opinions. But until then, see how it goes before disagreeing.

kamaitama wrote:

If you want to avoid frustration, problems, and power struggles, one of the best things to possibly do is remove admin ranks. Admins don't need to be supervised, the community can do that for you. Simply make an admin report section where people can file complaints about admins, and you'll have everything under control, since, who knows best? 8 people, or everyone in Olden?

Eight people. Everyone on Olden has and always will have disputed opinions. Nothing will get done when all of them are chiming in saying things that don't matter or that unbalance the scales. Too many ideas at once; nothing gets done. But you weren't there to see how badly democracy wasn't working with me.

kamaitama wrote:

The bad thing of democracy is that it does not ever give the expected results. It gives the fairest. I want it to be fair, not to be my way.

Nothing will give expected results. That's why we test the waters, do things and then see what people think of them. Fairness and equality is not good to have right off the bat because not all people are equal in mindset. It's a sad and cruel story, but few know what's right and wrong in most situations. Don't say the water is cold if you haven't poked your foot in it.

Life is unfair. If it isn't fit to give a choice, it won't be given. We are un-biased, but picky.

I'm going to remove the reputation system since it was mostly a test. To see it abused shows that basically everyone who -did- abuse it is immature, and those who based their opinion on someone because of a number are even more stupid.

Lastly; if you're doing this out of "good intentions", don't do it. The path to Hell is paved with them.
If you're doing this for attention, don't do that either.
If you're doing this because you want to commended for your efforts, or to earn a reputation or become respected, known, or earn a place on the administration community because you 'did the right thing', then don't do that. You've already proved to us that you can't follow simple rules that have been in place, and always will be in place. You can't change them unless you get all of Aeria to agree with you, so stop thinking that you can and learn to adapt. It's how humans evolve.

If you reply to this post saying that I am claiming/assuming that you are, you would be incorrect. I'm putting it on you to decide. Giving you a choice if you've got your head screwed on straight. And if it isn't, get it. If... not Are. There's a difference.

Fuck you Ruta, GO fuck yourself. All of you. I was never around because of Finals, I WAS going to get us a Server. With this, you will never see me again. Im going to Disappear. It's fucking Non-Sense. I was fucking up in School. I got Grounded. What with a Mutiny. You let it go to your head Ruta. I -made- you an admin. Now you knifed me in the back Mate, good game. I fucking hate you Ruta. Im sick of this place. Besides Ruta, I never said nothing could be done without my approval. Thats why we have a team of Admins. They can make descisions in my Absence. So, With all of this said. I hope you enjoy Olden without me, and I hope your all proud of what you've become.

Talk about coup'd etat



But almost like



Because we all know, it's a



Of course, comical approach.

I agree with Matt on this. Going behind his back and disposing of him was a fucked up thing to do. All that Olden has become is a huge ball of betrayel, mistrust, and going behind others backs, and i do believe that there is nothing left for me here. Everytime one thing happens someone either over reacts or just stabbes others in the back. So consider this an official FUCK YOU RUTA post. Im out.

-Steve

We didn't dispose of Matt, we just took him from leader position. Is that so bad? Maybe it was just for convenience in the eyes of the people who made the decision.

Everyone needs to stop over-reacting.

This coup'd etat we held was just.

Think of it as another Revolution. us being the United States and Matt being the bloody red coats

The word disposing in this context means that they took him from power with very little reson. This is EXACTLY what they did, he has been doing everything he could under the circumstances, and you guys just go and tell him to go fuck himself without even asking his opinion on the situtaion. That is why i acted the way i did, and that is why i am done with Olden.

1. Matt should stay admin or whatever he started out as, I'm new.


2. Democracy is a big no no, a council of wise admins can make better decisions than a mass of uninformed people.

Ehh, I give up trying. I just hang around and do shit. Not going to get involved with this fight.

What's this all about? I need someone to sum it up, too hyper to read all of what MC wrote :S .

Rossii wrote:

What's this all about? I need someone to sum it up, too hyper to read all of what MC wrote :S .

Slap yourself to a state of calm and then read their posts throughly and slowly.

Jesusfuck, this is like the third /rage thread this week.

When shit has been discussed and agreed on between the government officials, you don't rush out of the crowd and yell "Fuck you, I don't like this!" to them. That simply doesn't work. Yes, you may speak up but please, take it to them directly without pulling us down with you. Making rage threads will only end up getting people frustrated and confused which is not a good way to make progress.

Just take a long look at my avatar. It will calm you down and make all stress go away.

Or my avatar.
<----------------------

Ness Tea wrote:

Or my avatar.
<----------------------

What an epic avatar, sorry for off-topicness.

Johnny wrote:

Jesusfuck, this is like the third /rage thread this week.

When shit has been discussed and agreed on between the government officials, you don't rush out of the crowd and yell "Fuck you, I don't like this!" to them. That simply doesn't work. Yes, you may speak up but please, take it to them directly without pulling us down with you. Making rage threads will only end up getting people frustrated and confused which is not a good way to make progress.

Just take a long look at my avatar. It will calm you down and make all stress go away.

I never thought I would agree so strongly with our CPG...

Now, on topic all i have to say,
How can I trust you admins now?
You have basically silenced a leader so easily without hesitation.
For all I know you are all plotting to silence members and plotting more things behind several of our backs.
All of which trying to silence us, and end us.
Matt was so simply removed of leader, admin, moderator. Rank towards of which a member and ended him with a single touch of a button.

Dies irae, dies illa
solvet saeclum in favilla

Uberman7788 wrote:

1. Matt should stay admin or whatever he started out as, I'm new.


2. Democracy is a big no no, a council of wise admins can make better decisions than a mass of uninformed people.

He started out as a normal member and jumped to give us a server when I couldn't support one. We saw it fit to make him leader because of this.

Yet we didn't realize that nobody in the entire world is fit for a leader position of any community. Especially ours. We can't have thrones.