The problem with vampires

okay seriously people, i know i shouldn't be posting without reading the entire thread, but after reading through 4 out of the 10 essay-long posts i couldn't stand it.

i have one thing to say as the person in charge of vampire lore:


VAMPIRES ARE EVIL. VAMPIRES ARE POWERFUL. BUT THEY ARE STILL SUPPOSED TO HAVE A HARD TIME.

the problem isn't the vampires itself, it's the players.

there's a simple solution to all of this. make sure that all the fuzzy-wuzzy-cutey-wampiwe-dwinking-animal-bwood doesnt exist by forcing them all to be evil.

and the vampires are overpowered and really evil. i made them that way because of two reasons.

1. there needs to be fewer vampires, and people need to learn how to DENY characters.
2. every single twat and his grandmother goes around with silver weapons. it's like surna's walls is studded with silver spikes. seriously, it's just ridiculous.


and before you go "but people don't want to play evil characters who're at risk of getting killed at every turn"

GOOD. that's how it's supposed to be. then we'll have fewer people playing vampires, and thusly only dedicated people who like playing really evil characters who are against the odds will roll a vampire.


TL:DR;

vampire lore isn't the problem. they're supposed to be against the odds and super powerful. the players roleplay them incorrectly when they're not heartless.


oh, and about the issues with the hunger and teamwork.

first, vampires WOULD work together. they were even organized into a fucking army with proper divisions and everything at the black tower.

second, a normal vampire can only hold out for a few days. oh, and markka, it's not retarded. they get stronger because the hungrier they get, the more their instincts take over, and thusly the more feral they get. starving yourself to become stronger is a good tactic used by many older vampires. but it's also risky, as you have a high chance of simply jumping straight into the silver sword the nearest snack is pointing at you.

It still doesn't really make sense to me to gain power when you become hungrier. Granted, you lose ability to reason and use any sort of logical and tactical thinking, but... I still think it's kinda iffy. Would an entirely feral vampire be how powerful compared to a normal one? Could they lift huge chunks of rocks and use them as bowling balls while the enemy group are the pins?

And, yeah, the amount of silver weapons is pretty crazy, but so is the amount of dark beings that are the most affected by silver, yes? Why would people have silver if they knew it wasn't useful for other than robe linings and trinkets?

I guess if you were a blessed then throwing rocks isn't out of the equation when you're dealing with the hunger. As it was said before, the lore is fine and dictates that vampires are evil, it's the players that are the problem.

We'll soon not have any vampires, i'd think, then.

But hey, I can then start killing them alright.

Btw vampires, what Mack says = vampire law.

No more hanging around in the bar being social characters. No more having lovely little chats with people on street corners.

Be evil, evil, evil, or be removed from your character, i'd think.

But, Mack, you can't expect us to predict that a player is going to do it wrong, and if we use your wait and see philosophy (which would work in this case), the character wouldn't be accepted in the firest place.

Surely, if I, as a Concordic Knight, began using Silver Fire as some sort of minion power, and had little Silver Fire imps hopping around, you would expect Pat, my faction leader, to set me straight on those inconcistencies.

If the lore isn't going to change, and the players have to, I think to some extent you're going to have to help them with that Mack.

Okay, since apparently I was dragged into this discussion.

Markka wrote:

No, not really, unless you're strong as hell. It's called heavy armor for a reason, and the one wearing it likely isn't immovable, so they could easily fight back against it. Besides, would you like to go close and personal with someone like that? Vampires don't have nothing to fear, unless they're made of silver.
I heard that scenario between you and Fnox just recently. Fnox did mention that Benjamin just ran up and slapped his character in the face without him being able to even react. If Fnox had had three seconds of time, he could've prepared to attempt to counter.

You see, what pissed me off when he did it was not that he climbed eleven steps in less than the time it takes me to clap ( Coincidentially I can throw a fist at around that speed, IRL, so Ariel, a much more able fighter could do it even quicker ), but that he ALSO slapped me, all in a single motion. It makes absolutely NO sense than instead of using, you know, stealth to sneak up the stairs and slap Ariel without her noticing, he instead ran with his super speed up a set of stairs, something that not only called my attention but triggered a reaction.

Markka wrote:

Metagamezor? Well, I dunno. Rha has an excuse for that, as she could easily smell a vampire if they're close enough to her. Mirage knows two vampires.

Ariel hunted vampires on the first place. And not only that, but it's pretty damn easy to notice someone is a vampire if said person is running about doing EVERY SINGLE display of vampiric strength there is, and have a fear of silver.

Grale wrote:

15:39 - Graley: I ran up, she tried to stab me.
15:39 - Graley: I gripped her hand.
15:39 - Graley: She gripped my slapping hand.
15:39 - Graley: Or, blocked.
15:39 - Graley: To be exact.
15:39 - Graley: I then tried to slap her again.
15:39 - Graley: That hit, but it didn't do ANY damamge.
15:40 - Graley: Then noddy ran forward and punched me in the nuts.
15:40 - Graley: I say.
15:40 - Graley: I lost.
15:40 - Graley: That fight.

Please allow me to retort, this is how I saw things went:

• After I made a truce to stop a fight you started for no reason, I walked into the guardhouse's tower area, with Noddy in one hand, a knife on the other.
  
• You suddenly open the door, and make a dubious claim that you can open a door, climb up stairs and slap Ariel in a single movement, and claiming that due to your "vampiric speed" I can't react to that fast enough.
  
• I asked Pat, he told me that's not possible, so I reacted, I stretched the hand I was holding a knife with to stab you.
  
• You stop your insane speed, grab my hand and IMMEDIATELY throw another slap, claiming this was harder.
  
• I was unable to react due to the ensuing discussion that lasted for 15 minutes, after which I finally did, I was knocked unconscious by the second slap, which I must say, it's overplayed, but hey, Ariel's a girl fighter and not a strong one at that.
  
• Noddy attacks, something which you complained about too. He hits you in the balls.
  
• We BOTH fall down considering we were grabbing each other's arm.
  
• You end up rolling on the floor holding your balls.
  
• I end up with a broken arm, head injury because falling down 11 steps of a staircase hurts. I remain unconscious.
  

This is how EVERY fight with a vampire turns out. You can't attack them normally when they themselves reveal they are vampires because they can do whatever you can do only harder, better, faster and stronger. You can't use holy attacks because they'll run away with their super speed. They can't lose because they're vampires.

Vampires are not just needing a retool, they're requiring one. Vampires should be given a much more clearer amount of weaknesses that aren't superficial or situational, vampires should be stripped of their "super speed" and instead given a different mean of escaping, and most importantly, vampires should NOT be able to SHOW everyone they're vampires without suffering any sort of consequences. In fact, vampires shouldn't even be able to use their abilities all the bloody time, given that no other race can.

Quote :

Ariel hunted vampires on the first place. And not only that, but it's pretty damn easy to notice someone is a vampire if said person is running about doing EVERY SINGLE display of vampiric strength there is, and have a fear of silver.

Ariel may have hunted vampires, but she's never killed one, and never fought with one, that much was clear.

olooloOLJUlu ima toss KNIF AT U

There wasn't much thought there, you have to agree.

Vampires are supposed to be an 'enhanced human' sort of race, which means they're better than us in almost every way.

That's why there's supposed to be inherent fear involved in RP with them.

-Nobody- has a reason to underestimate a vampire, not Zack, not even Fearu.

Quote :

Please allow me to retort, this is how I saw things went:

* After I made a truce to stop a fight you started for no reason, I walked into the guardhouse's tower area, with Noddy in one hand, a knife on the other. <--Yes, vampires are evil.
* You suddenly open the door, and make a dubious claim that you can open a door, climb up stairs and slap Ariel in a single movement, and claiming that due to your "vampiric speed" I can't react to that fast enough. <--Yes, vampires are super strong, and Ariel does not hold hold the key to the guardhouse tower.
* I asked Pat, he told me that's not possible, so I reacted, I stretched the hand I was holding a knife with to stab you. <--Pat is not the Vampire lore master.
* You stop your insane speed, grab my hand and IMMEDIATELY throw another slap, claiming this was harder. < --Again, still a vampire, still faster, stronger, better than you.
* I was unable to react due to the ensuing discussion that lasted for 15 minutes, after which I finally did, I was knocked unconscious by the second slap, which I must say, it's overplayed, but hey, Ariel's a girl fighter and not a strong one at that. <--Unless that was his intention, you wouldn't be knocked out. People can control the power of their attacks, y'know.
* Noddy attacks, something which you complained about too. He hits you in the balls. <--Again, i'm fairly sure he wears armour as a vampire, /shrug.
* We BOTH fall down considering we were grabbing each other's arm. <-- Okay?
* You end up rolling on the floor holding your balls. <--So he ended up RPing it, that's bad in your books?
* I end up with a broken arm, head injury because falling down 11 steps of a staircase hurts. I remain unconscious. <--So, probably not the best idea to tangele with vampires with only a silver dagger and an inflated ego. What'd you expect?

There is three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth.

I do not wish to argue with you about the fight on the forum. If you care to do so take it up either through SF or PM.

Having read the latest wave of text-walls, I conclude once again that the lore is not at fault. It's the players.

• Vampire players either RP "good" vampires that don't drink human blood, or they overestimate their abilities and powerplay. Either way, the lore is being contradicted.
  
• Normal players carry armories full of silver weapons, which are supposed to be vastly expensive. The Guard carries silver weapons, but they're little more than silver steak knives.
  
• Normal players assume they can land hits on vampires, who have superhuman strength and speed. A lot of vampires let them get hits in, which is good, but it's technically not fair.

So, I'll remind everyone of my proposed changes. Vampires should lose their powers if they stop doing vampire things. Yes, it's hard to be an evil vampire, but like Mack said, that should prevent loads of people from signing up for super-strength and speed. If people can be vampires without the cons of having to dodge hordes of wannabe vampire slayers and drinking blood, then they're just an over-powered race.

Scars tried to be evil, but then was forced to be good by Zayl and Thorn. Now he's being watched 24/7 and is only allowed to drink from donors.

Spoiler:

How am I supposed to be evil with the odds stacked so highly against me. For instance, Scars once had to fight a fully armored knight, thick, thick armor and a large claymore. Scars managed to win thanks to his vampiric strength and speed, but that was the only reason he won, seeing as at that time he had just recently become a vampire and only had iron daggers and leather armor, which isn't much good against a claymore. Enough people know about Scars' vampiric speed and strength because they've witnessed him doing things. He isn't afraid of the fact that he is a vampire because no one does anything about it. He doesn't run around screaming "I'M A VAMPIRE WEEEEEEEE~" But if someone asks he'll tell them. His eyes are a minor give away, then again there are girls walking around with purple and turquoise eyes, anyways.

Vampire's are so strong and fast for a reason. It's basically them versus all of Talibar. Just as well, vampires have teamed up in the past. Jacob and Scars teamed up at one time, and Scars took the fall from that, that's one of the reasons he was in jail for a few months. That's why Scars doesn't trust other vampires anymore. The fact that people stick silver up their ass to prevent vampire butt-rape is silly, who has that much money besides Thorn and Izzy? (Metaphor for the amount of silver, in case you couldn't spot that) That's why Scars has a Vryium sword, so that if he fights someone with silver all he has to do is scratch them with it and they're poisoned and hopefully dead in a few days.

Anyways, that's my take on vampires. I'll admit it is slightly biased towards Scars but not too badly, I just used Scars for examples.

I have no weapons on Benjamin yet I manage to be "evil". He uses his strength and speed to his advantage, even though people usually call bullshit on it.

A few guidelines below.

• Try to feed on characters that are weak/alone. Use the element of surprise towards your advantage. Lie, deceive, trick your victims into believing you are a good guy before you strike.

• Conflicts are inevitable. If I feel outmatched, I run. Remember, you will most likely outrun the person. Use your environment to hide. If you can not run, use every dirty trick you got. You fight to survive and to kill.

Also, you say you are guarded 24/7 but it should be fairly easy for a vampire to escape during the night. If not, gain some vampire allies. You say Scars doesn't trust vampires but what would he rather trust, the prey or the hunter?

Munroe wrote:

Having read the latest wave of text-walls, I conclude once again that the lore is not at fault. It's the players.

• Vampire players either RP "good" vampires that don't drink human blood, or they overestimate their abilities and powerplay. Either way, the lore is being contradicted.
  
• Normal players carry armories full of silver weapons, which are supposed to be vastly expensive. The Guard carries silver weapons, but they're little more than silver steak knives.
  
• Normal players assume they can land hits on vampires, who have superhuman strength and speed. A lot of vampires let them get hits in, which is good, but it's technically not fair.

So, I'll remind everyone of my proposed changes. Vampires should lose their powers if they stop doing vampire things. Yes, it's hard to be an evil vampire, but like Mack said, that should prevent loads of people from signing up for super-strength and speed. If people can be vampires without the cons of having to dodge hordes of wannabe vampire slayers and drinking blood, then they're just an over-powered race.

i scimmed most of the new posts since my own post, but then i read this. and i'd like to say that this is a great solution that i, as the vampire overlord, would suggest putting in.

if you fuck up the being evil bit, you're going to be stripped from your vampire abilities.

thank you, munroe.

I got tired of the vampire debate before this thread was started. It's clearly not the lore's fault, vampires are supposed to be super-human, arrogant bastards. One of the main problems is that most vampires try to be badass lone wolves who believe the entire world revolves around them. It either makes them a stray threat, a dumb-ass, or a coward who chooses to run.

Maybe instead of bitching on the forums how your vampire is the one true exception, try actually having your character find a solution IC, you know, like what would happen in a plausible work of fiction.

Also, there are the few people who are able to best vampires in some way. Deal with it.

As for doing anything about it, I already worked out a plan with Mack, and have a new justice-fanatic for a special character coming right up.

Spoiler:

I can say I'd be willing to deal with people coming after Lillian for feeding on people.

I can also say that I wouldn't mind vampires getting weaker if they don't feed. I've done it already.